Before Midnight / Return Of The Jedi

It’s mini pod time again. Another between-season fix, keeping you going before the start of Series Three. Yes, the format continues to be abandoned as Phil and Nicky complete the trilogies they started in Series Two.

Nicky has brought BEFORE MIDNIGHT (2013) and Phil has chosen RETURN OF THE JEDI (1983) Enjoy!


References mentioned, and wider reading…

Elijah Gonzalez in Paste Magazine -
https://www.pastemagazine.com/movies/richard-linklater/before-midnight-time-non-idealized-love 

Dana Stevens in Slate.Com - 
https://slate.com/culture/2013/05/before-midnight-directed-by-richard-linklater-reviewed.html 

The Blog od Marzarbul - 
https://www.theblogofmazarbul.com/2021/10/02/a-flawed-masterpiece-why-return-of-jedi/

Dagon Dogs - 
https://dagondogs.com/2016/04/09/return-of-the-jedi-quick-dirty-review


#films #podcast #movies #filmreview

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:07

Hello and welcome to Light Camera Aggro. This is your between series pop-up pod, keeping you full of lights, full of camera and full of aggro. Before the start of series three, I'm Phil and it's a trap.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

And I'm Nikki and I am the fucking mayor of Crazy Town. This week we're completing the third part to our favourite trilogies, all in the same podcast. I get to finish the before films with Before Midnight from 2013.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

And I brought the 1983 film Star Wars Return of the Jedi and it completes the trilogy.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

We know there's nothing to link these films together, but come along for the ride regardless. Remember to drop us a like and subscribe and share your comments below. And don't forget, this is going to be full of spoilers. If you haven't seen Return of the Jedi or Before Midnight, now's the time to pause the pod and come back when you're done. We'll be waiting.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Right, Nikki. What's so good about before midnight?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

So I've had quite the journey with this film, right up to yesterday. So I was obviously very excited in 2013 to know that there was a new before film coming out. It had been nine years previously that we saw the second film, which we talked about last year.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

So the gap between this and the is nine years.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

They're all nine years apart. So I remember it being talked about for ages, and then it was in the cinema. I went to watch it with my little brother, who is 15 years younger than me, but also a massive fan of these films. Um so obviously he's not the same as me, where he watched it at the kind of right age. He just came to it later when he was a teenager, to be honest. But I went with him and we went, we watched it in the cinema, and we came out and we just talked and talked and talked in the car coming home because we had so much to say about it, and we were both. I think our initial reaction was like, Oh, oh, I don't know. You know, we had a lot to talk about. What I would say is this is not the same as the other two in many ways, but definitely in terms of vibes, definitely different, deliberate because this is not the idealised romantic first love, first meeting, first connection, nor is it the reconnection after years of the person you've idealised over time. This is real life. This is nine years of a relationship with kids and constant contact, and as a result, it's not as romantic and beautiful and floaty and gorgeous, you know. It's real life, it's real life relationship stuff with real life shit. So I watched it at the cinema, had lots to say about it. I remember writing a whole big essay about it as well, just for myself, and then never really revisited it because I just knew well, if I'm gonna go and access that sort of before vibe again, I'm gonna watch the first one, and then occasionally the second one, but I'm always gonna go back to the first one. So this week on Friday night, bearing in mind it's Sunday now, I watched it again and I'd completely forgotten.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

I remember the So have you only seen this once?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

I think I've seen it once. I have seen it once at the cinema, and I don't know if I'd bothered again. Really? Maybe I've watched it. That shocked me, that shocked me. I definitely basically me and my partner were revisiting them. Well, he hadn't seen the second one, so I made him watch the first one and the second one about a year ago, and I was like, we need to give it a bit of time before we watch the third one, and then we never got around to it because I was not pushing for it. So on Friday night, I watched this again for maybe the second or possibly the third time, and I'd it was sort of like a new film, even though I had vague recollections of vague vibes. And I watched it now as a 48-year-old woman, still married, still in a long-term relationship, which is obviously what I was when I watched this at 35 when it came out, and I had didn't have as many issues with it as I did then. As in, yeah, you two are gonna be fine, it's all good. This is just teething problems, this is just young parenting, this is just the stress of the bullshit of life, or whatever they say at the time. Yeah, I felt much more reassured than I did the first time around when I thought, oh my god, they might split up. And as a result, after Friday night, when I watched it for this pod, I said to my partner, right, do you want to watch this last night? Saturday night, have our tea, watch a film, and we did, and I watched it again in a twice in two days, which is you know Well, I've seen it twice this week.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

And uh I really enjoyed it, and I got loads more out of it. And I think I just I was put off the initial thing because of oh no, they're rowing! Like, you know, these are my idealised heroes of of love, and actually they probably still are because that's what love is, isn't it? Or long term, and I didn't have as much of a problem with it, but it took me a while to it took me a long time to get to that point, and I think I had to age to see it.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah, so I I enjoyed this more than the other two. Interesting. Because it like the other the other two, you know, I like my rom coms.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

The other two just ROMs. There's no comedy no hang no comedy in them, but they're just romantic movies of like, oh, wouldn't this be great? Wouldn't that be great? This is more real life, and I quite like that. I quite, you know, I felt the argument was a bit pushed, you know. Obviously, he's missing his kid, he's thinking what's gonna happen and stuff, and it was just a bit hand-pushed in, but it worked, it did work. I also have a little thing to say: the scene when the argument in the hotel room and and she um fucks off out and he lies down on the couch.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Face down.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yes, I am now guaranteeing he didn't brush his teeth in before sunrise because the bottom of his feet were mingling when he was on the couch. I don't care. He didn't brush his teeth. That that answers that question.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

So I've got this from IMDB trivia, so obviously, you know, yeah, let's not quote this like it's our life depends on it. But apparently, Ethan Hawke described before sunrise, the first film, as a film about what might be, before sunset, the second film, as a film about what could or should be, and before midnight as a film about what is. And that feels spot on. This is real life. This is the reality of long-term relationships, dealing with the day-to-day nonsense and crap that you have to deal with when it's moved on from the honeymoon period to the first beatings, the first dates, the sexiness.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

With this with this film, I liked the interaction with all the people around it.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I was wondering about how you'd feel.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

No, I thought that was good, and I was glad it was at the beginning of the movie.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

You know, and it was good because, like, obviously, one of my criticisms of before Sunris is I just want to see them two talk, and what this was good, because as you say, this is set differently, this is set as real life now.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Yeah, this it's structured completely differently because unlike the other two, where the vast majority of the film, beyond a little tiny scene at the beginning, is you know, just them. This time we've got an airport scene where it's just Jesse and his kid. Then we've got a long conversation between Jesse and Selene in the car with their sleeping daughters. Then we've got a chatter with the friends in the shared farmhouse, and then the meal, the the chat around the table. Then it's about halfway through, I didn't check, but it felt like that. The talk as they walk, just the two of them, finally, just the two of them.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Which I thought was really nice. I thought it was a nice build-up to them going on.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

So it's really different structure.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah, it was really different. Uh I will put one criticism level this. I don't think she needs to be topless in the film, it just didn't add anything and stuff. I I felt it was just a bit gratuitous because of how the other films are. I didn't expect that to happen.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

And that's the point, I think, isn't it? The other films are first meetings, first dates, reconnection. This is real life. So she's walking out topless with a uh partner of how many years and just it just doesn't matter, that's just their life, isn't it? She's taking a phone call, she's just it's sort of it's like, you know, to me. So, first of all, I often think nudity is not always essential unless it's really moving on the plot. I know that Julie Delpy was part of the writing of this, so I don't think anyone's said to her, This is what you're doing, and she's had no say in that. Do you know what I mean? I'm not worried about that.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

I don't think of it like that.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I'm not worried about that. I think she'll have had that say. My point is it just shows that from one second she's it's all sexy and the snogging and he's kissing her tits on the bed, and the next minute she's like got up answering a phone call, talking to her stepson. Um, you know, the and then having a row, still having a row, and she's still it's because that's how they they live together, so of course it's normal in the same way. Remember when girls do you ever watch girls? It was I mean, yeah, there's no reason why you would. It was very good, but the point was it was one of the first times I saw like so it was Lena Dunham was the main character who and she wrote it as well. So she wrote that her character was naked quite a lot, and sometimes it was in a sex situation, and other times it's because she was just getting changed. But you know, when you sort of think about the times when you see films where people are getting changed or they're coming out of bed but they have a sheet over them, and they won't it's sort of it's it's not realistic. It's you don't need the person to be naked in the film, but equally, if you're going to show something that's hyper-realistic, then of course they're naked. You're a bit dressed with a sheet over you.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

It just wasn't either, you could have still done that scene without it, but okay. I think it added that level of they are so this is their life, this is that they're not you know that anyway, because they've been together, they've got kids.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

I'm just saying, I can see why they put it in. I can see, and I can say she I don't feel like she was exploited because she would have had all the chance to say, Oh, I'm not doing that, she may have suggested it, who knows?

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah, I like the setting of Greece, I thought that was quite nice. Beautiful, beautiful. It was really nice. I thought the conversations was really good. Obviously, you're not gonna know the answers, but why was his kid ringing her to let her know that he was rather than his dad?

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Well, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

I mean it showed a good relationship between her and the kid, yeah, and I quite liked that. You know, that that was quite nice to see, and obviously he's very nervous thinking, oh my god, he's gonna go to high school soon, I need to be there, I need to be this. The whole argument stems from he wants to be around his kid more. Yeah, you know, a realistic argument.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Very realistic. Do you think maybe, and this is just my perception of it now, do you think maybe he's not as good a dad as he he's not as good a dad in reality as he wants to be in for sake?

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Oh, you can see that, you can see that.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

And she just gets shit done. She's the one who's basically she said she wipes his piss off the tape the the toilet seat, you know, the kids. She's literally having to do all of the parenting because he gets to go and write his books and go on book tours and play football in the yard and talk to his mates about the meaning of life. And she's the one that is sorting out the shopping in the supermarket and cutting up the tomatoes. Yeah, and it's fascinating because I just I've oh I've heard so I've got so okay, let's not overstate this. I've got several female friends, different friends in different conversations at different times. So this is not just like one conversation I've had with a group. Individual people, women, who have said, basically said that you know, Afley was always equal when her their them and their male partner were living together, married together, sharing household stuff. Equal, great, it's the modern world, we're all feminists. The minute they had the kids, suddenly they are the ones that do the equal share of what they did before, plus the kids. And the husband, who isn't a bad person, ha has to be told what to do with the kids. And I've heard what Unceline was saying, you know, I do you know, do you think there's a fairy that puts the school letters in the bags and wipes or there is there isn't. No way. There isn't. But I've heard that version of that sort of complaint several times in my life from friends of mine.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

As being a dad of two daughters, you know, I get that.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

You know, I get that the emotional labour often falls on the woman.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

You know, I used to think we had the magic table where I put stuff down, it would magically vanish. So found out years later it wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

But it's true, I think that's there's such a level of realistic. I've heard that conversation before.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

I've heard that so yeah, I think the conversation's very, very realistic.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

So when Jesse is sort of, you know, she it's when the sun is ringing her, she's probably been the hands-on parent that holiday. He's been there for six weeks, and I'm sure he's had lots of great times with his dad. I'm sure he's had lovely, meaningful conversation. You know, the dad's that Jesse's probably tried to have a meaningful conversation with his 13-year-old son, you know, it's probably life, yeah. Yeah, yeah, he's probably trying, but they've probably had lots of quality time together, but she's the mother figure who has done shit, and so she's the one going, Ring me when you get there.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

I'll see you know that's what I quite like the fact that the relationship between his step-mum and him was good enough where he was like, you know, she's not being the wicked witch of the west to him.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, the ex-wife might feel like that, but the son likes her, yeah, which is nice.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

But he was going on about the ex-wife being an alcoholic, and she said that, yeah. Yeah, and stuff. So kind of like, what are they sending him back to?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

And that's the stress of the thing, isn't it? They both feel bad about that, they feel terrible about that. But she's got the upper hand because the court has ordered her to have that level of custody.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah, and I thought I thought the argument was good. You know, it was I like the argument in the hotel room, very realistic, hair storming off, yeah, then coming back. Yeah. You know, that's the thing we all do. Right, that's it. I'm going now, we'll go. No, go on, then go. I will, I'll go. You know, you see it loads of times. Um, she actually went off, she came back to say more, to have a go a bit more.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Well, she came back to try and say, Who do you think you're winning? And they sit down and then he opens the bottle of wine. So they kind of have a pause in hostilities and they kind of laugh and joke again, but then it kicks off again. It's not settled. This is a comp it's I think this is indicative of lots of relationships long term. There's a recurring argument, and it's not necessarily about Henry the son, it's not necessarily about whether she should take this new job, but there'll be something that's deeper than that that covers all of it, yeah, and it's never resolved. And so they fight and they sort of bring it up and then they sort of laugh about it and forget about it, or they just sort of cover the cracks a bit because they actually know that they're bigger than the Rao for now. But it'll come back, and we know it'll come back after this film ends, doesn't mean it'll split them up, but there's always unresolved things you can't quite.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

See, I don't think at any point in my head they'll split up. No, no, I don't think I didn't think that at all, but I do think they've got issues, but their love together will get them through it, you know. He's got away with words of talking to her, yeah, she just gets pissed off and he knows how to calm her down.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

He he also knows how to wind her up when you correct her English when she's speaking in a setting language to him all the time. Yeah, and he like goes, you know, I can't remember what it was, me and you and I, or um Henry and I, no, Henry and me, whatever it was, he corrects it in the middle of a row about something that isn't the point. I know, I know, but that would row that. It is, but it's like she he know he he could stop doing that, but he's pedantic about words and he thinks you see, look, I'm he's just trying to be a bit of a smart ass. He is a smart and this is the problem. Jesse is my ideal man because in 1997, when I first watched the 1995 film before sunrise, he was the man that I always that was who I wanted to be with forever. That was like my ideal man, and in the second film, yeah, still fine. Okay. This, oh, grow the fuck up, Jesse. Grow the fuck up. Yeah, he is he is very you and your writer, and I speak that as a writer. It's not you write books, we can get them. But honest to it, I honestly feel like you can be too precious about your own stuff.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yeah, I think he's a bit up his own arse.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

He's really up his own arse, and you can be proud of your work, but the idea, and it does make me laugh what he's written a couple of romantic books and some other stuff, and he's been invited to some Greek villa by all these writers. I think oh as if that would happen.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Well, it's like you know, he's wrote one book and he's on this European book.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

I know that's that's the bit that I feel a bit isn't quite realistic, but you know that that's me being pedantic.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

The other thing I didn't think in in my head, you know, you may think different was a bit realistic, is that she's suddenly pissed off that he'd shared their story, you know.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Oh no, I think she was a bit pissed off in the second film where she goes, Mm, was a bit unrealistic, a bit idealised. She never felt that it reflected what she thought happened that night.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

But it is a novel. It is a novel, and that's and I'm So you're not gonna write exact word for word as it happened because it wouldn't be as glossy and sellable.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

And he did that the first time in her absence because he didn't know where she was. Yeah. So he wrote about this lovely evening you'd had with this woman he met once, and he could make it as fictionalized or as you know romantic or fake or whatever as he wanted because he's the writer and that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

And he may never have seen her again.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

And he may never have seen her again. When he saw her and she goes, Oh, I don't I don't know about that. You know, you seem to be more idealised than I thought. He then w made a decision to write a second book about them, about their sex life as well, which is gross. And she's clearly uncomfortable with that all the way through.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

So I do I do think in the second and the third one, there is more of a theme of sex than there was in the first one.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

I agree. Uh, you said that about the second one, and I didn't agree. I agree with this one, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Well, you need to re-watch the second one and just think about it. Yeah, so there is more of a theme about sex and their sex lives, and she has a go on him that he does the same thing in the same position and all the time, and he goes with it.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Titty kissy titty titty pussy, yeah. Which I like and snore.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

The snore bit made me laugh. And then and then I love this line of like, we can't mess with perfection or something like that, you know. It's just yeah, but I again which just shows we do all get into routines.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah, okay. The sex, the con there is a lot of sex chat in this, but again, that to me is representative, it's it's not about the sex necessarily. So her saying you do the same thing all the time in bed is not about their sex life, it's about him doing the same thing all the time in life, and he sees sex as this much more sort of oh, this lifeblood that gives connects us all together with the universe. He's so kind of um in his own head about meaning and the gravity of human existence, and ultimately it is just about him wants to get laid. I think. I think he's a bit shallow in this. I kind of call him out bullshit for some of his writers shit that he talks about. He's always pitching the idea of a book to people who are listening. In the second book, in the second film, it was about him at the beginning of the you know, the press conferency thing in the bookshop. He was told about he had an idea about, I don't know, uh something that happened a book that takes place the length of a song.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

And that's when he's talking about that at a length that Celine sees him and they catch each other's eye. In the first one, you remember he's told me he's got an idea for a show where it's like everyone's it's basically YouTube, I think he's uh he's pitching, but it's like everyone films their day, their day, and everyone has a boring day, but they film them all together, and there's beauty in there. He's always pitching these long-winded ideas. He does it in this film on the sort of terrace of the villa about different people with different sort of mental um things that mean they've got sort of almost super strengths, like they can always remember uh deja vu or always remember everything.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah, the old woman who everything I think I've seen this film before.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

I think if we are if we're just dropping boring to be honest. We're just dropping in, dropping into Jesse and Celine every nine years, and we hear I know this I know this is fictional and I'm overthinking, but we hear him pitch these ideas three times in three visits that we have with them. He's doing this all the time, presumably in the years of the year.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

I would imagine so because none of the books that he talks about are the ideas he's pitched.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

I'm so bored by them, and I'd be like, Oh, he's got another idea, oh god, and Celine must just be like oh okay. And I don't disbelieve their relationship, but I also see it now through much more human eyes in that I'd just be like rolling my eyes at him, going, Oh, he's off again. Oh, here we go. You know, I'd be doing that to him.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

But that is that is a relationship though, that's the kind of things you do.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

But it does, but also I'm surprised that I would do that because he is the guy from 18 years ago in the first film that I thought was the epitome of what I wanted in any partner, and now I'm like 18 years later going, Yeah, I'd pretty doom my head in, actually. I think I'd be telling him to wind his neck in and give me a hand with the kids, you know what I mean? Yeah, but that's that's life.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

That is life, and I do like, and I think this is why my I would say it's part of my favourite part of the trilogy. I'm so I'm interested is that real life has kicked in. Yeah, it's not just like walking around, you know, like you know, we talked in the first part about you know, as he brushed his teeth, money, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

We didn't talk of the length, that wasn't it.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

No, but we no, but we talked about these types of things, you know, you know, realities of yeah, the reality wasn't there in that one. Yeah, and then the second one, you know, it was a nice film, not much happened.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Everything happened. They he he changed his life by the end of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

This one was real life, and it showed you know, it showed you the consequences of the decision he made, it shows you, you know, that it's not all romance, it's you know, sometimes done. Yeah, it's hard work.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

It's a relationship, and a relationship is hard work, it's bloody hard. I thought what I liked about this one was it within the sense of being a different, so we had lots more interaction with other people, which we never really had. I know you didn't like it in the first two films where all the people came into that bubble, but there was literally very short, little tiny bits that they did that. Um, this one there's lots of chat with other people.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

But half an hour, I think.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

In the table scene.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah, I think it's about half an hour it goes on for a look.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

In that section, you've got the the young couple who have just got together the last year who are Skyping all the time.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah. Um, but it shows that and I like that they talked about Skype, and it obviously ages the film when they talk about Skype.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

It does, but it also shows how it's funny 13. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

But what it shows is that it's moved on from when Jesse and Celine had their first meeting because they didn't have those facilities.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

So they've got the young couple around the table who have just got together and are skiping and it's all very sexy and beautiful. You've got the other sort of, I'm going to say middle-aged, but I don't mean middle-aged, middle of the road, kind of centre, not centre-left. What am I talking about? The couple who are probably our age, who are um obviously happy. Oh, but young. Obviously, yeah, obviously happy, but also full of like fights and banter and just living life. And they're, you know, it's not right, we're not arguing, we're negotiating, as well as Ariadne said at one point. Then you've got the older couple who aren't actually a couple, one the woman who's widowed uh of after years and years, and the guy, the granddad of the younger guy who whose house is, who's kind of oh well, we're I'm married, but we have separate lives and it works for us and all that kind of stuff. And so you've got all these different relationships all around them, and but they're the central. Relationship we care about. We just see them responding to these other people and like you know, little things like how did you meet, how do you keep in touch, all that stuff to this younger couple because that would have changed their lives so much.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Massively, I did like so when the younger couple went, so how did you meet? Yeah, if I was one of the other couples around the table, I'd eye roll go off. Here we go, here we go again.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

To be fair, Jesse says it quite succinctly, doesn't he? He doesn't kind of he goes, Well, we met, we found love, and then we reconnect. Yeah, so he doesn't go, Well, I was on a train.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Well, if you if you knew that, you'd be like, Here we go again. Yeah, I'll just give you my book. I'll say, you know, what's what's the line in Nazi Kill? We can find an unsigned copy, unsigned copy, it's worth unfortunately. Um, but yeah, I I've I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. Um, more than I thought. When it started, there was like you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

You mean before you when you knew you had to watch it, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

A little bit.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Um, tell me about it.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

We've got the return of the Jedi coming up. I'm there.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Um I didn't enjoy the whole of the conversation around the table, I will admit that. You know, because it was a bit like, come on, just get on with it. I want to see.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

You wanted them too?

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yeah. Okay. But then on the second watch, I was like, no, you need that bit, you need it, and you you know, see where they're at, what they're like with other people, the interaction and how they are as a couple, and then it progressed, and obviously they went for the walk and they went for the argument, and it was an interesting choice to show them arguing, to show a different dynamic than what we've seen before. Because what we've seen before is just like lovey, dovey all the time, and yeah, the the potential of what they're building towards, yeah, yeah. You know, and and we all we all think, you know, as as you said when you first saw Jesse that first time, oh my god, that's my ideal, and think that's what it's gonna be like when really the reality is life does kick in.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

It does, and I think that's why it was good to include other people a lot more in this film because their lives are full of other people, they're no longer two strangers walking around a city or two people reconnecting in their own little worlds, learning about each other again. They've got real other people in their life every day, they've got you know school teachers and colleagues, and so their bubble is expanded to involve other people, so they have to have other people in this film. The other thing I really liked, and I only spotted it on the second time of watching it, which was last night. Do you remember? The end of the first film, as they've I think it's after they've said goodbye, and so we know they're on their different modes of transport. The camera pans to all the places they visited in Vienna together, but they're all empty now, it's the early morning, right? And so it's like you know, this the statue they sat on and the road and the you know the riverside, whatever. Then in the the beginning of the second film, before sunset, the camera starts with before we see the bookstore and Jesse, the camera goes to like a cafe, a walk along the Seine, the overhead aerial garden path, and there was that we see all the places that we are then going to see in the upper. I knew I know because I've seen it loads, like and so you s you visit the places that that we are going to come back to in the next 10, 20, half an hour, an hour with these this couple. So you sort of see the it's like the you know, you have this panorama of all these locations that the couple have been in, either before or after. In this film, right? It's is this I don't know if it's intentional. Celine's stormed out of the hotel room, right? Jessie's sitting there, uh sitting at like the table where she'd had a cup of tea, and we see a shot of the cup of tea with the tea back, we see the sete where they've been sitting, we see the bed where they were getting it on, we see all the parts of the hotel room where they have been in that conversation, and then it moves and she comes back. And I'm like, their world has reduced. All the places they've been part of in this conversation are not like different parts of a city, they are parts in a big room. And it's like that's what happens when you are together for a long time, you've got a life and you've got kids and you've got bills, everything is slightly more reduced and small and everything. And you know, in theory, you kind of get through those years and then the kids grow out or go go home. Grow home? Grow home or go up, whatever. Grow up and go home, go out and go. Grow up and go up. They just fuck off, basically, and the kids will go. And then you and in theory, in an ideal situation, retirement kicks in and you get to go and see the world again. But obviously that's not how it works in this economy. You know what I mean? They are they're reduced into the practicalities of their bullshit of their everyday life at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

And that's okay, it's a stage.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

So this so think of this this is a couple I would like to know in real life. Okay. Yeah, I'd take the piss out of Jesse and there's philosophy all the time and there's stuff like that. Yeah. But she's really interested as a character. You know, she's more interesting than him.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah, as Patrick, the host at the table, says, you're one of the writers whose partner is much more interesting than you.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

That's quite cool. Yeah, she's somebody I would like to know. Yes. You know, not romantically, just as a person, because she's very interesting, she's done a lot of stuff, she's seen a lot of shit. Yeah. And she seems nice, and I like the fact that she's got a bit of fire in the belly, too. You know, uh, he seems alright, but like I say, you just end up taking the piss. It'd be good to have a laugh with.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

I think he can be a bit self-deprecating. I don't think he's a complete freak.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

You know, when like, you know, you say, Oh my god, we see the bookshows over there, and then he'd start going into big description about how he'd describe, and you'd be like, Come on, Jesse, you know, you'd be able to take the piss out, but and it's me who's saying your book's a bit long, and you know, taking the piss, and that sounds like it's a bit dull about his pitching the new book, and he's laughing at himself, so that's okay. Yeah, he's probably he's not awful, but overall, quite happy I've seen the trilogy.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

I am I am happy I've seen the trilogy. It was better than I thought it would be.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

In terms of the trilogy or this film?

SPEAKER_01 27:45

The trilogy. Okay. Talking about as a trilogy. As the whole story. As a whole story. I forgot I'd seen the second movie. Okay. Yeah, so I had actually watched it. When you said we were gonna well, when we suggested we're gonna do this, you brought before sunrise first, and then I came up with the idea in the podcast of going, well, why don't we do the whole trilogies? Then you came up with the idea of doing those mini pods. I am glad that I've seen the trilogy now.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

I think I'd seen the third one, I don't remember it, but I think I'd seen it. I'd definitely seen the second one before we'd watched it. But yeah, it's it's an interesting look at life.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Yeah. At two characters.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Do you want some other people's thoughts? I've only got a couple.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Go on.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Okay, so in 2023, Elijah Gonzalez, he talks about how this film is about non-idealised love, but it's still about love. Although their relationship isn't exactly the same as it was all those years ago, at the heart of Before Midnight is the hope that enough remains the same that these embers can be rekindled. Across the before trilogy is a common pathos, a genuine interest in people which asserts that the mundane happenings of day-to-day life are worth rendering on the silver screen. And I felt very similar, like I really enjoyed watching their life, like the little bits and pieces of their life, their real life, not the life that they've left behind in America while they're on a train backpack in Europe, so they're not actually in their life. The real life, I really like seeing it. It reminded me of a film that I think is still in the cinema now, maybe it's just finished, called The Invite, which is Olivia Wilde's film. She wrote it, she's in it, it's four people, two couples. The a couple invite their neighbours round for drinks, and it's the conversation that ensues, and all of real life is in there. And it's also fictionalised and slightly elevated, and some slight crazy stuff goes on, and it's very funny, it's funny as anything. But just that, you know, it's looking at Olivia Wilde is married to Seth Rogan and their relationship. And he it's not like an a Seth Rogan-style comedy if you're thinking about the previous stuff in the past. It's clever and witty, and it's just sort of the sensibilities of a long-term relationship. I really, really enjoyed it, but it really reminded me. This this third film really reminded me of it. Anyway, that's that. Dana Stevens in 2013. Um, and it's a slate article. And I think this sums it up really.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Slate? As in slateing the movie, or no, the website slate. I've never heard of the website slate. Okay. Now just advertise them.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

The audience's sympathies cycle between the two partners. They would, we realise, be tough people to live with, but in part because of our own long history with them, we can't help but root for them to make it work. I think that's true. I don't want them to split up.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

I don't think they will, actually. No, I don't think they will.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

I think when I saw it the first time when I was 35, when it first came out, I thought, oh my god, I don't know what's going to happen to them. You know, at the end.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

You're waiting for the next nine years.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Well, well, that's past now. We've I think we're 13 years after now, so I don't know if they're gonna do another one. But I like that they could. I like that there's probably enough to say about being um older.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Well, I think as in as we're heading into the Retail of the Jedi, we've got 12 films out of Star Wars, we need to see the prequel before before the sunrise. Jesse's trap around Europe, what Selim was doing.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Oh god. Sometimes the story is told and we move away. I'm just honestly.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Well, it did I so one thing I will finish on. I did think because one of the things you always talk about is that not every film needs a sequel. No. And I did think that when I first watched before sunrise, yeah. Now completing the trilogy, it did need the complete story.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Yeah, and it does does it oh does it feel complete? It does in some ways, but like when it came out it felt complete to me, and yet now I'm older, I think there's so much more you could say about older relationships and all just getting older yourself. I mean Celine going through the menopause, I am there for that. I would love to see that. And Jesse maybe um maybe Jesse gets cancelled and he no longer can write books, so he has to just get a job.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Here's a question we could end this on.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

What would you call if? Because they've used sunrise, sunset, and before death. Before the eclipse.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Before yeah, what's after midnight? Before dawn? Oh. Before dawn, before twilight. No, it's before midnight. Before the early hours of the morning, before the 11th hour, no, before death. It's gotta be before death, which is a cheery note.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

That doesn't fit in with the titles. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

So okay, well, on that note, Phil, I'm sure Richard Link later is to scribbling it down.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Well, I will I will have a look, just out of curiosity for myself, whether there is discussions for another one.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Oh, there's always discussions for another one. Because it could it could be written. If the three of them want to do it, it'd have to be the three of them again. You can't like you know change any of that. Um yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

So we'll end that there then.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Okay, Phil, it is your turn. You made me watch Return of the Jedi. Tell me why I had to do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Because this completes the trilogy. The original Star Wars trilogy, which is considered one of the greatest trilogies of all time. You know, obviously the the that by the world. You know, your before trilogy, which we've just done, I would imagine be in that bracket too.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

You know, some things not by mainstream still. No, but some people will class that as a party indie people.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah, but they'll class it as a perfect trilogy, and it just bookends the story. You know, you hadn't you've missed out on these films through young years. I missed out on the before trilogy in my formative years, so it's nice just to bookend.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

So I obviously have watched the first two in recent months, the last what the second one was just a few weeks ago. And I would say that when I knew I was going to sit down and watch Return of the Jedi, this was the first of the three that I actually thought, oh, okay, let's see what happens. I kind of know where we're up to. Didn't have a clue where we're up to after the first one, before the second one. I think there was too much space between maybe, but also I would say there was too much going on in both those films. This film felt simpler.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Um Well, I I will say this is the weakest of the trilogy for me. I will go through the the notes in a minute about what the story is about. But this is the weaker of the trilogy.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

All I knew was when I sat down to press play, I thought, right, I need to find out if they get Harrison Ford out of the stone. That was I knew there was stuff to look like.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

You mean the carbonite freezing?

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Probably. Um his jazz hands needed to jazz another day. So I knew that that was a thing that was going to have to be sorted. I had an element of what would be coming, or I was looking for something that might be coming. I when I started to watch the second one, I just was like, it felt like starting from scratch. I felt completely confused all the time. You know, this one at least I had a bit of a okay, let's see what they do with it. You know, I was a bit more on it this time.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

So, Return of the Jedi concludes the original Star Wars trilogy as the Rebel Alliance prepares for one final battle against the Galactic Empire. Luke Skywalker returns to Tatooine to rescue Han Solo from the crime lord Jabba the Hut, reuniting with Princess Leah, Chewbacca and the droids and Lando Carizion. After the rescue, the rebels learn that the Empire is constructing a second Death Star. Determined to destroy it before it becomes operational, the Rebel fleet launch a daring assault with Han, Leia and a strike team to travel the forest moon of Endo, where we meet the little Ewoks. They're going to destroy the shield generator. Meanwhile, Luke confronts the greatest challenge of his journey by surrendering himself to Darth Vader, his father, in the hope that of bringing his father back to the light. On board the Death Star, Emperor Palpatine, who becomes a fully fleshed-out character in this one, attempts to turn Luke to the dark side by making him give in to anger and hatred, believing he can turn him. As a massive battle unfolds around the space station and the fighting on Endor reaches its climax, Luke refuses to become the Emperor's apprentice. His compassion ultimately inspires Vader to make a life-changing decision leading to the death of the Emperor and Vader's own downfall. With the Death Star destroyed and the Empire just dealt a devastating blow, the galaxy celebrates the rebel victory, bringing hope and freedom after years of oppression.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

You know how we said we weren't doing like the timeline in these mini parts.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

That's just a quick couple of minutes. Okay. So this from my point of view, this is the weaker of the trilogy. You know, I think the strongest one for me is The Empire Strikes Back. I like that. And then this concludes it all. The one problem I have with this movie is the Ewoks are too cute and cuddly and friendly. Um they were brought in to sell toys. And I know that was a decision.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Well, what's interesting is I'm watching it, obviously, having never watched any of the stars before, you may be in these recent times. And as soon as the ewok came on the tell, no one says the word ewok on the screen.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

No.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

So I you know, no one's telling me what that is. And I looked at it. You just think a cute little telly. I looked at it and I went, oh, is that an Ewok? And I knew what an Ewok was because that's what everyone wanted at Christmas when I was a kid. And what I didn't know is that they were from Star Wars. Like I didn't know Yoda was from Star Wars. These are just things I just have known about but didn't know. But I always used to mix them up, or rather, I always used to put them in the same category. Similar era to Gremlins, another toy, a cute toy that people had at Christmas that I didn't have because we had no money. But you know, Ewoks, they were around. And I recognised the Ewok immediately without it being told it was an Ewok.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yeah, I think I think the movie this movie like starts off pretty well where you see Princess Leah in disguise going and the droids going into Jabba's palace and then she defrosts Han. Did you know that was Princess? Did you have any?

SPEAKER_00 37:49

No, I thought it was gonna be Lando.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

You thought it was gonna be Lando?

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Well we saw him under the helmet.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, we knew he was there in disguise.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

So I assumed it was him doing all that.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

You know, I thought that was pretty good, and then obviously Luke come and can't use his Jedi mind trick, so they end up he has a big fight with the Rancor monster. Okay. Worst special effects of the movie though. Oh I can't remember. Stop motion, you know, the old stop motion.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Um you're retelling the story, we're not doing that in the mini pod, we're talking about the story.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

But I'm just saying these bits, so did you have any inkling of what was going on in these points?

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Loads more inkling than the first two, and I think it was a simpler story, and that benefited me.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Because I mean, I don't know all the names of all the actors uh not the actors, all the characters, all the monsters, all the things, but I could follow the fact that you know they were trying to do this to get that, to blow up that, to get together again. You know, I got the the flow of it in a way that I didn't, the first two. Um I would say this shouldn't have been called Return of the Jedi, it should have been called The Wookiees Save the Day. Because if it wasn't for the Wookiees, everyone would have just Ewoks. Yeah. This I've written Wookiees in my notes.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Well this so I'll tell you now, right? This originally was wrote where they were Wookiees, like Chewbackers, Homewell, but they changed it because they thought they'd sell ewoks more than it would be Wookiees, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Well I've written the Wookiees Save the Day, as though that's a thing. Okay, the Ewoks Save the Day. If it wasn't for the Ewoks, everyone would have been absolutely screwed. Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

So it just felt quite I mean, I don't care because I'm not obsessed, but it did feel quite let's just create a bunch of little teddy bear type people.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Um to come and indigenous people to that planet.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Okay, I didn't know that. Um to just let's create a whole new thing just to make the plot work, which felt lazy because well we can all do that. No, well that doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

No, but the thing is that that's them on their own planet, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Which we hadn't seen before.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

We hadn't seen it.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

I just I mean obviously they're just shoehorning them in to sell stuff, I get that. But it did feel clearer and simpler and more followable, and so I appreciated that. Um you said, I think you said last week it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

It is when the ewoks start coming into it, and you know I was gonna ask you for some examples.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

It did feel lighter to be fair. Yeah, but it didn't feel laugh out loud funny. There were no gags.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

It's not like gags, but there's like I mean, when the one of the ewoks is trying to throw stones on on a bit of rope and it goes around his head and hits him in the head, and they end up like playing drums on stormtrooper helmets and things. You know, there's just it's a once the ewoks come into it, there's a little bit more of a lighter sense. So even though there's danger still going on, yeah, yeah. They they lighten the element a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

I did like this the best of the three.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

I thought you would.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

Yeah, why did you think I would?

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Because it's the lighter of the three.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Okay, yeah, yeah. Um it just felt simpler. I keep repeating myself, but it did, it felt simpler, it felt clearer. The intention, the the narrative was clearer. I think maybe if you're a kid or you're just really into this and you want to see side quests and space stuff and fights and all kinds, then maybe you would see this as being not as good because I think there's a lot more of that in the previous two films. But this just felt like a really linear story. Luke's quests of Luke's journey A to B to C to D.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

I think I think this feels just more like a more kid-friendly movie compared to the other two.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Because of Ewoks and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

No, just story, you know, it's obviously I don't want to say Star Wars is hard to follow, but it's easier to follow this one, as you said, like A to B. Whereas The Empire Strikes Back, it's a little bit more dark, it's a little bit more complicated, emotions and things.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

I think I well, I couldn't work out whether I was finding it easier because it's told better or more succinctly or simply, or is it just because I'm three films in now and I've got the gist. You've got the gist. But I don't I think there are some really dark bits in this, but not as many. But like, okay, we do need to talk a little bit about the gold bikini. It's really gross, it's really gross, it's gross on many levels. It's gross because I've heard Carrie Fisher talk about it and how she was made to wear it and all that stuff, right? So that makes me feel really icky just knowing the behind the scenes and her subsequent stuff that went on because of it. But even if we just take it at superficial face value, pr Princess Leia is a general.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Loads of power, we see her in a white sheet all the time, right? Fully clothed. So the fact that she's captured and then stripped is so rapey.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Yeah, it is, and it's so rapey, and in chains. And he is a crime lord who is horrible and suppor you know, yes, forget forget the caddy fisher stuff.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yeah, I know subsequently, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:35

But in this, he is a horrible slug.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

He is but the point is it's so very rapey that the horrible slug has captured a woman, a powerful woman, taken her clothes away, put her in a really objectifying, very thin, tiny little bit of material, if that metal actually, and then is chained. Oh, she's chained up. Yeah, it's so sex slavy.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

A sexy girl dancing for 'em, yeah, and then just decides to watch a game. I know, it's horrible.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

It's it is horrible, but I think that is all very dark. None of that's comedic.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

No.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

It's just horrendous.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

No, and then obviously his death scene by her choking him to death, Princess Leah choking Java's. No, that was nice. Was quite good.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

One of my favourite bits, I literally did go, yes, right, which is very unusual for me in this situation. There was one line that made me shout yes, or shouts a bit of a overstretch. It's when um Leia has come to not the bit where she's defrosting the stone, but when she s comes to she comes to get hand solo in a different time later on, and she and he says, I love you, and she goes, I know. I love that bit. I felt like it gave her the power back in their dynamic. Exact exactly, you know. Well she didn't have the power in their dynamic in the second film.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

These aren't these aren't the best written films, but the story's good.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

I enjoyed her saying it's way too, I know. I loved it.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

It's it's uh I can't think of that scene now where that actually was.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

It wasn't the bit the first bit she rescues himself later on because she wasn't here.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Is it when I know where it was? She has a gun. Yeah, so they're trying to hack the door to get in on Endor, and she sort of gets shot a little bit or he has to put his hands up because people are coming at him from behind, and he she shows that he's got a gun and goes, I love you, she goes, I know, yeah, I know the exact scene.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

I just felt like you know, I wasn't rooting for anybody particularly in all of this, but yeah, that little bit was nice. Um so there's a lot of stuff about father and son shit in this.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Which is a lovely link to before midnight. That's the only link.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

There was a link in before midnight. He said something that was very similar to uh do or do not. I can't remember the line. I remember watching going, ah, there's the link, and I can't remember the line.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

In the second film, he said something like it's not like beginning.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

He said something in the third film. I can't think the exact line now.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

He's just Yoda, isn't he? In a t-shirt and scruffy hair. Uh anyway, forget Jesse. We've moved on, we've all grown up. I'm trying to I mean, I've got stuff to say about the ending.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Go on, go for it. Well, I just feel like are we jump am I jumping too soon? We can come back, can't we? Um, I liked the end. The ending felt like an ending. Because what you've got to remember is I have come at this, 48 years old, having never watched any Star Wars anything in my life, having no interest in it, just not being for me, happy to give that a swerve. Recognising over the years that stuff is coming out to do with it, hearing you bang on about some new thing that's been streamed, I don't know. I don't know what any of them are. But the point is, it just feels like it's been an it's a never-ending forever thing. Well, many versions.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Well, this is one of the good things about creating a universe. Well, is there's lots of the bad things? There's lots well, it depends on your your take. I know. There's lots of different avenues you can go down. You know, one of one of my favourite films in the Star Wars universe is Rogue One. And Rogue One is basically the film of the opening title crawl of Star Wars and New Hope.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

You know, it's just done really well because you can split it off.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

I understand that people can really cash in on this because they've created a wealth of bits to pull out great. But for me, I have no interest in any of it, nor do I understand how any of it fits together. So I didn't even understand. Yeah, I I still get confused about the four, five, and six-ness of it all. I understand now, but you know, before we were watching these, I just knew they were all really random things and that some are from ages ago and some are from more recently, blah blah blah. However, this third one, which was basically the end of the trilogy for a long time, feels like the end of a trilogy. Everything is neatly tied up, and I like that. I like that they've got to the end of it. So I like that the Emperor is dead. And I like that Darth Vader is dead. Is he dead? He's sacrificed himself for Luke.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

If he's dead, well, if he's not, that log fire would have really seen it. Yeah, well, no, he's cremated, isn't he?

SPEAKER_02 47:03

If we watch his cremation.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Well, this isn't this isn't one of the things that's quite amusing, really, is the fact that Darth Vader's in the suit because he got burnt to a crisp, and then the first thing Luke does when he dies is burned to the floor.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Yeah, so I like that we the final thing about those things, and also we see that Darth Vader kind of um does he become Anakin Skywalker again? Yeah, yeah. He sort of refines the good side again and he's able to connect with Luke on some level. He sacrifices himself for Luke. I like the Lair and Hands are happy. Is it hands or hand?

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Hand.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Icon hands, just because I like some um frozen hands.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Hands Christine Anderson.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Yeah, yeah, frozen hands. Um they're happy.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

But he does have frozen hands, yeah, chaz hands.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Everyone's happy and dancing, there's fireworks. It feels like is this have I got this right? We see fireworks and celebrations at all of the universe. What what different places?

SPEAKER_01 47:50

So it's just jumped into my head now. What did you get over the twist of Luke and Leia being siblings?

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Well, it's not a twist when you've heard this stuff in the ether for years, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 48:01

So you were expecting that to come.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

I didn't know it was gonna they're gonna say it today, but I knew that was a thing. What I don't understand is so again, another thing I've heard over the years without knowing why or where is uh don't they have some sort of incestuous thing going on?

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Well she kissed them in The Empire Strikes Back.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Yeah, she kissed them a little bit. It was nothing majorly bad. Yeah, I don't remember that. That's it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

That's fine. But the point is that this feels like a proper wrapped-up tie the boat, end of let's all celebrate fireworks for everyone. So as far as I'm concerned, I've known there's no no, there's nothing else for me in this world though, I'm done. But I obviously what how long was it after this that people started doing other things?

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Yeah, I was a candle, so I remember that. So, like, how so I'll give you the how and why. You know, obviously the Empire's been destroyed, Dharfay's been destroyed. Do you think that will be the end of the empire?

SPEAKER_00 48:57

What is the empire?

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Well, the empire is all the bad guys, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 48:59

The stormtroopers the two boss bad guys have gone, so maybe everyone can turn to the good side under Luke's tutelage. Well, well that's how I see that ambiguous ending for me.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

So in in sequel, the main bad guy is Hansel and Princess Leah's son.

unknown 49:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

He's turned to the dark side.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Yeah, well, I'm just uh there's absolutely no reason for me to have to get involved with anything.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

But you can see, like, you can see how you know um they could splinter off the stories to to TV shows and stuff because, like I say, you know, there's fractions within the Empire, they're not just gonna suddenly stop operating because, you know, the Emperor's being killed.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Yeah, I understand all that, but I'd liked how final it felt. Yeah. I'd have been furious if you'd made me watch these three films and then there was still like stuff to find out.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Well, I never thought they would do anything like after Rosai of the Jedi featuring obviously Luke Skywalker. I just didn't imagine that I knew the prequels would happen at some point because you know you don't start with part four, you know. But when they said they were doing a sequel trilogy, I was like, okay. And it started out quite well, it faded off a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

You and McGregor was in it, I remember that.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

That's in the prequels. Oh, sequel jobs. No, the prequels when when they came out, they weren't very well received, they made loads of money, but they weren't very well received. But now looking back in time, they're not that bad.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Well, for me, this one felt like the most relatable. You know, I said right at the beginning of the very first, the first one we watched, I said, I need to be able to find some way to relate to the characters, and I know that I generally don't when it's sci-fi or fantasy. Um, sometimes with fantasy, but not with sci-fi, it just isn't my thing, so I just don't care enough, basically. But with this one, I did find that I was able to relate to Luke, he's got father shit going on, daddy issues, you know. I related to Han and Leia, just wanting to kind of save each other and get together. Um, and just the fact that you know I like I liked the kind of stuff with Darth Vader taking his mask off and having that conversation. All that felt very human and very, you know, this could be Jesse talking to his son, not it couldn't be but you know, any other person.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

He wanted to look upon his son with his own eyes.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Yeah, it could be any other sort of human, you know, modern day, whatever. It doesn't have to be a space thing. Uh and I enjoyed all that. I mean, uh enjoy is too strong a word. I followed it, I went with it. I didn't look at the clock every second to see how it was much longer. You know, I had did do that with the other ones. This one, I just let it play. And I was I thought it was alright. It was alright.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

So would you re-watch this?

SPEAKER_00 51:37

No, obviously not. Come on. But I have watched it and felt I watched it and didn't hate you for making me watch it as I watched it. Whereas the other two, I was like, geez Louise, come on. You know, I was struggling with the other two because it was so far out of my usual thing. But this one, yeah, this was fine. This felt more like never-ending story or one of those kids' fantasy stories, you know. That do you know what I mean? That has some kind have you ever seen that? Yeah, that kind of thing. It didn't feel like it was too bogged down with spaceness. It just felt like this could have been taking place anywhere. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Well, I was good. I'm glad you liked it. So so as a trivia note, yeah. I have met David Prouse, who was Darfai. There he did sign a photo for me.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

At like a comic content.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

It was uh Computer Games Convention. Oh, okay. Uh and he just I didn't know they were going to have people there to sign stuff. He was there, the guy who played Boba Fett was there, he's out of the second Star Wars who froze Han.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

Um, there was a couple of others there, and then I also met Warwick Davis in Pizza Hut on Oxford Street in London. Oh. He just happened to be there and just asked me what pizzas were on the He wasn't signing stuff. Not signing stuff.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

No, he he just wanted he just wanted to get a pizza. He just wanted to get a pizza a new rock up. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

He asked, I was on a dinner and he came up and asked me what the pizzas were.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

And I just told him what he thinks did he think you weren't there?

SPEAKER_01 53:02

I don't think so. Um but then I went to sit down, had a pizza with my friend, uh, and he was like, Oh my god, have you seen us over there? I went, Yeah, I just spoke to him. I didn't I didn't do the whole oh my god, it's you or anything like that. It's probably my coolest moment of my life.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

I really well I didn't realise it was Warwick Davis when I was watching it, but I looked up all the people on IMDb and saw, oh okay, Warwick Davis, cool. However, what I did need to point out before was um I I don't know if this was the case with the first two films, but this film, as soon as like maybe the opening scenes, whenever it happened, as soon as Darth Vader was on for the first time, it's James L. Jones. Yes, it is, yeah. Has it always been James L. Jones?

SPEAKER_01 53:41

It's always been James L.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

I did not know that, I didn't recognize I mean I probably knew that in my head somewhere, but I did not hear him, I didn't recognise his voice in the other two films. In this one, it's like, oh, the guy from Coming to America is you know, it's so funny. I would only heard it this time.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Well what's really funny in the first film is that the actor David Prowse who was playing Darfad didn't know they were voicing over.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

So he only found out the first time we watched the film. Oh god. But he's got like a West Country accent. So can you imagine that would be a good one?

SPEAKER_00 54:09

It'd be a different way to go.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

James Earl Jones' voice just works for the character. It does.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Yeah. Do you want to hear what some other people think of any of the comments?

SPEAKER_01 54:16

I'd love to hear what other people say.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

Well, can I just tell you now that this was the hardest thing to find because when I Google Return of the Jedi Discourse, um I read a few articles that didn't make any sense until I realised it was about the last Jedi, the first Jedi.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

There's another film called something like that.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

There's there is uh The Ryan Johnson one. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

So I read a lot of it. So basically the first few pages of Google, when you put Return of the Jedi Discourse, it's all is it the last Jedi? Yes. It's all that, like nothing. So I had to really sort of dig through all of that. And I did read a few before. I thought, I don't know if this is the same film. But I read a few.

SPEAKER_01 54:55

Um 20 pages deep, and you're like, I'm not making sense.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

Where's the ewatch? But like I didn't know Ryan Johnson did one ages ago and got slated, and I do love Ryan Johnson, so I was happy to give you know clicks to people who've talked about him. Anyway, the blog of Marzable, is that a Star Wars word? No, I think. Okay, it might be something completely different. Um, basically recognised that this is Luke's story and is not concerned with the other characters, and I think this is what makes it feel simpler for me. So this is what he or she or they say. In the first two films, all of those characters, the side characters, have their own individual motivations, developments, and arcs. However, Return of the Jedi is a very different beast. I think it's fair to say that Return of the Jedi is wholly and entirely about Luke and concerned with him. Sure, Han Leia are in it, but what do they actually do? In what way do they develop or change? Leia kills Jabba and finds out that she's committed the mildest possible incest, but she doesn't change or grow in any way. Han is rescued and finally accepts leadership within the rebellion. It's noticeable how inconsequential the film makes this feel when Hannah spent the previous two films actively trying to get away from the rebellion. In both cases there is definitely room to allow them a more fully realised arc, but that room is not given in return of the Jedi. And I think is that why I just was like, okay, we're looking at Luke. They're trying to try and yeah, they're sort of working for Luke or helping Luke, and Luke, it's all about Luke. And that made it maybe a simpler narrative to follow for someone like me who has no bandwidth for any of it. That was one thing.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

Fair play. And then the other thing, now this is um Maybe this is why you like films where it's just two people walking in the street because you can't get distracted by that.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

I just think that the the beauty and the exchange between two people is all of drama. But Dag and Dogs, Dag and Dogs, not sure. Uh, reviewed Return of the Jedi in 2016 and opened with some pros and cons. Okay, all of these links will be in the show notes, obviously. So there's a pros and a cons list. They're really short, but the pros.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

The O Ming story arc with the rescue of Hans Solo from Jabba's Palace is still great. Yes. Okay. The space battle at the end is exciting and fun.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

The lightsaber battle, while not as well shot or interesting as Empires, still has an ominous and emotional quality to it. Oh, that's it to it. Full stop.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Yeah, well the thing is, you know, the lightsaber battle, it's an old man. You know, Darth Vader's an old man at this point, so it's not gonna be dynamic, is it?

SPEAKER_00 57:15

But it has an emotional quality to it?

SPEAKER_01 57:17

Erm, just a little bit. Yeah, because it's father and son fighting again.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Last Pro, Emperor Palpatine is over the top, an evil AF.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Yeah. He just he always he misses is an evil laugh.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

Yeah. Cons.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Go on.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

It reasons Well, this is someone who loves this film, so you know, who's written about it, so it's not like me saying it. Recycles too many ideas, the Death Star, for example.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

Yeah, and that's a common theme within Star Wars. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

The dialogue is cheesy and should have been a warning sign for the movies to come.

SPEAKER_01 57:45

Star Wars. That's just Star Wars in general.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Ewoks.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

Yeah, we've already discussed that.

SPEAKER_00 57:51

I thought they were they were good.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

Characters that have changed over the past few movies are no longer consistent. Some of their qualities feel forced.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Luke, uh Han and Leah possibly.

SPEAKER_00 58:03

Reduced tension.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

Yeah, because it's it's not got the you know, are they gonna destroy the Death Star? You know they're gonna destroy the Death Star because you've seen it happen before.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

You know, Luke, uh sorry, Han and Leah, you know, oh do they love each other, do they not love each other? Yeah, they do because obviously, you know.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Child pandering, characterisation, and storytelling. Yep. I think that's probably true. Luke is and so the last one, Luke is a walking plague of melodrama. Daddy issues.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

Well, of course. But overall, you're happy you've seen the trilogy now, finally.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

Um I think now the third one is there, it makes sense of the first two, or at least it just makes me feel like okay, that was alright. Um the the endings have come. Hans is not hands, Han, whoever, Harrison Ford, Harrison Ford's Jazz Hands have been released for the world. That kind of um cliffhanger is sorted, and it did feel like a really neat, tidy end to all of the little bits and pieces, and the fireworks everywhere just was like, yeah, celebrate goods, come on.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

They were only added in the special editions, they were never in the original.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Were they? Well, this is the other thing. At the end, you see the three dead people, yes, and I wondered well, okay, Yoda and Dotin's.

SPEAKER_01 59:21

And the young younger Anakin Skywalker.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Yeah, now who is that?

SPEAKER_01 59:25

So that is Hayden Christiansen, right? Right, who played Anakin in the prequel trilogy. Now, there's a there's a lot of discourse between Star Wars films. Should they have kept the original actor to be?

SPEAKER_00 59:38

I would say yes for the rights of the actor's money.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

Well, he's at his earns' money and stuff from when it was out years ago. But Anakin Skywalker died when he became Darth Vader. So it's like, where do you draw the line of what you do? And you know, the the one thing I would get from it is when you see obviously Yoda's ghost at the end and you see Ben Kenobi's ghost, and then you see a young Anakin Skywalker. Why is Luke not going? Who the fuck's that? Because he's why is he a kid? You know, he's seen his dad as an older man.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

So why isn't Luke not going what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

Well, I was going, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Because I didn't know who it was. Exactly. So if you didn't know who it was, how would Luke know?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

And Cross said they put in the fireworks after like not at the time. Well, how did it end otherwise? How did we know everyone was happy?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

We still had the party and the there was a bit of music, but he emphasised it up a bit more.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

So in the the fireworks, you see different planets celebrating and stuff. They are all in the prequel trilogy. So that was a lineup ready for when they made the prequels.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

I'd say I'm icky about we made this piece of art from 83, whatever it was. And then when did they go in and change that? Like 10 years later, 15 years old.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

He modernised them so that when he released the prequels, they would look in sync.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

I understand why he's done it. I don't like that he's done it. I don't think you should think that you should fiddle with art that's already done. It's like me basically going into some of my books that have been out for 10 years or eight years, whatever, and then changing bits that I think I can do better. I can do loads of it better, because ages ago, and I'm a better writer now. I wonder if that's a thing with books. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:18

People actually add to books.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

No, it's just sticky because it's out there and people have got I mean they p they reissue things and they might add a I don't know, a forward by someone more but no, it's no.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

George Lucas always says you never finish a film, you always abandon the project.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

I agree with that. You you can you can't make it of course, you have to decide to stop. And you will always I've just had to read like all of my three Lisa McCulliff books one after the other these last few weeks because I'm making this big file of all the facts and all the So I've read my old books this last few weeks, and I'm like, oh cringe, I could do that better. I'm I'm editing as I go, can't do anything about it. I've been out in the world since 2017. So here's 2019, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Here's the argument, right, for directors coming back and changing things is that sometimes the movie studios at the time have too much influence and go, we want to cut this out, we want to cut that out because we want to have it two hours, ten minutes, because we'll get seven showings a day and we can actually stand. And the director goes, Well, that's not my vision, and then they go back in later years and restore their vision.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

Yeah, but I can't I'm sure that there's the compromises have to be made and all of that. I just don't think once you've got the finished thing that's out there that you I don't know, I just it it's not for me. It's not for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

I'm all for a director's course.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

Oh my god, oh my god. Right, I'm calling time on this conversation. That is it for our special episodes where all systems go for series three. Are you looking forward to it?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

Yeah, well, we've we've actually sat down. We we met in a coffee shop, didn't we? We sat down, we planned out what films we're doing for season three and season four.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:59

The subject to change.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:00

Those are just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

You know, but season three is locked in.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

It is, you know, it might well, we've not recorded any of them yet, so it doesn't have to be locked in.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

Well, I think I think the pr the list is pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

I've got a couple of niche things on there, but I don't mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

Well, that's it's this is the idea. It's me bringing my amazing taste in movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

One note broad brush.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

My amazing taste in movies. But I think it works. I do think it it actually works.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

What we've we've got I'm look really looking forward to talking about my films. I've got to say, my films, and uh, and I don't think you've seen any of them. I'm dead excited about my five films.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

I have seen one.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

Oh, have you?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

Oh, you have, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:42

I'm just looking at the list now. Your films.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

How many have you seen of mine?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

Zero.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Uh-huh. One of them I don't mind watching because I probably should have watched by now, which is the first one we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Are you gonna announce it?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

It's Batman.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

Batman, the original. Well, the original.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

1989 Batman with Michael Keaton.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

I remember when it came out.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

Yeah. Because it was Tim Burton.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

Tim Burton's first film that the in the UK had the 12 rating for. It was the first film.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:09

I you know, uh I remember at the time, it's like, wow, and I was old enough to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

Well, I was 11. And I remember my mate from school, primary school, his mum who lived down the road from me and he had a little sister. I remember him saying his mum had taken them to go and see it, and the person on the door said, How old are your kids? And she said, 11 and 9. He was like, no chance.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

Well, now it's now it's changed, isn't it? A 12 certificate, it's a 12A.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

It's a 12A.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

Yeah, so 11 and 9 could go as long as a company.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

Well, that was not the case when that film came out. Right, let's wrap it up. Um, if people want more, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

Toffees are us or on TikTok PhilTimon.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:47

And I'm NikkiBomb.com, or you can look for the Lisa McAuliffe stories online. Thanks for listening, and until next time, bye bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

Bye bye.